Is IntraWeb really Enterprise Class Software?

[Gary Barwick]

I have used Delphi since it's version 1.0 release back in 95 - so I have
seen the product change over the last decade.

Last year I finally retired Delphi 7 and bought the Enterprise edition of
Delphi 2007 Win32. It wasn't cheap, but it was in the ball-park for an
Enterprise product. I had major issues with Delphi 2007 from the start,
particularly with the documentation. These have largely been fixed with the
maitenance releases so I'll leave them alone and get to the point of the
post.

VCL for the Web. (or IntraWeb with a new name)

I had never used IntraWeb before, but a few projects came along which seemed
suited so I gave it a go. These are my conclusions after a year of using
IntraWeb and sucessfully delivering a number of web applications to
customers.

1) IntraWeb is very good.

If you have delphi programming experience, it is an excellent way of
delivering web enabled applications without having to learn a complete stack
of web techologies like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP etc.

2) IntraWeb is not Enterprise software.

The documentation is very poor - some of it is years old. A little bit of
investigation and you discover that VCL for the Web is actually IntraWeb
owned by Atozed software. That Enterprise class development tool you just
bought is actually looked after by a couple of guys who don't work for
CodeGear and seem to be indispensible to the IntraWeb product.

Respect to these guys. The product is very good. But it is for the Delphi
die-hard, or the hobbyist. No development director / architect is going to
choose to use this product in over ASP.NET / J2EE / PHP et al. IntraWeb is
just not well enough supported. The risks are just too high.

3) Why don't CodeGear do it properly.

I wouldn't use IntraWeb for a traditional website with many hundreds of
pages as I think there are other options better suited to the task. However,
for the new generation of 'Web Applicaitons', which are characterised by
fewer distinct pages/views and by asyncronous requests to the server - I
think IntraWeb really comes into its own.

IntraWeb is good, but it could be great!

Am I the only person who thinks that VCL for the Web could easily be the
hottest part of the Delphi product?

Why doesn't CodeGear just buy it, or at least license it exclusively. Why
don't they throw some resource at it, push the development forward and get
some quality documentation behind it.

There are open-source projects out there. Surely it's in their interests to
support and drive those projects.

Do CodeGear want new customers, or are they just waiting for us all to die
out. (or buy Visual Studio)?

I don't want to trawl around the net looking through half-baked manuals and
'spellbooks' just to get something basic done. I want a professional,
well-documented, well-resourced and well-supported product.

After all when I purchased a product with the word Enterprise in the title,
that is what I thought I was buying.

Is anybody listening?

Gary Barwick

(to reply directly to me replace nospam with gary in my email address)

[Farshad]

I agree with you and I confirm 100% of your points. If you expect to get
some answers from CG officials, sadly they don't monitor here.

We need a discussion about IW or VCL for Web and I beleive that best place
for this is non-tech. I strongly recommend you to re-post this to
delphi.non-technical.

[delfo]

Intraweb could be great if it had 3 things:

-Documentation.
-Controls that "look and feel" cute instead of outdated (I would like
something that looked like Flash).
-Deployment to Linux/Apache.

Without those things it's just a toy.

[Bob Swart]

Hi delfo,

Post by delfo
-Documentation.

I'm working on that - my new Delphi 2007 - IntraWeb 9.0.x manual is
almost ready, and will be available for purchase on Lulu.com (printed)
or as PDF from my own site.

Post by delfo
-Controls that "look and feel" cute instead of outdated (I would like
something that looked like Flash).

There is an IWFlash component to integrate Flash into your IntraWeb app,
just as an IWSilverlight component and other integration stuff.

Post by delfo
-Deployment to Linux/Apache.

I have no need for that, although IntraWeb applications can be compiled
for Apache (see http://www.drbob42.com/examines/examin80.htm).

Post by delfo
Without those things it's just a toy.

That's your opinion. I believe otherwise...

Groetjes,
Bob Swart

[albert]

Post by delfo
-Documentation.

I'm working on that - my new Delphi 2007 - IntraWeb 9.0.x manual is almost
ready, and will be available for purchase on Lulu.com (printed) or as PDF
from my own site

No offence, and I'm sure that the book will be very good but shouldn't this
be available within Delphi out-of-the-box?

albert

[Farshad]

Post by albert

Post by Bob Swart

Post by delfo
-Documentation.

I'm working on that - my new Delphi 2007 - IntraWeb 9.0.x manual is
almost ready, and will be available for purchase on Lulu.com (printed) or
as PDF from my own site

No offence, and I'm sure that the book will be very good but shouldn't
this be available within Delphi out-of-the-box?

I highly appreciate Bob's attempt to prepare a manual for IW 9. I'll
definetly get one once it is out.

OTOH, You're right. It is CG's job to provide us enough documents for VCL
for Web. From IW users' view the overall outlook is not that good. You
purchase an Enterprise Version of Delphi for XXXX$ but when it comes to VCL
for Web you have to "re"-pay for support and documentation.

[Bill Todd [TeamB]]

Post by Farshad
OTOH, You're right. It is CG's job to provide us enough documents for
VCL for Web.

Since IntraWeb is not a CodeGear product I do not understand how
providing documentation is CodeGear's responsibility. CodeGear has two
options; sell the product that AtoZed produces or not.

[Farshad]

"Bill Todd [TeamB]"

Post by Bill Todd [TeamB]

Post by Farshad
OTOH, You're right. It is CG's job to provide us enough documents for
VCL for Web.

Since IntraWeb is not a CodeGear product I do not understand how
providing documentation is CodeGear's responsibility. CodeGear has two
options; sell the product that AtoZed produces or not.

It is their responsibility for several reasons;

A commercial software library package should contain:

1) Binaries
2) Source Code (Partial or Full)
3) Documentation
4) Bug Fixes and Minor Updates for free
5) Free support to some level

If any of the above is missing then the package can't be considered as
complete. So as the VCL for Web users we pay full for an incomplete package.
As endusers we souldn't care if it is a bundled or a 3rdparty package
provided by another company. We know CodeGear because we pay our money to
CG. It is the most basic rule of trading. It is like purchasing a BMW with a
cracked windshield, but the BMW company would claim that their windshields
are provided by company X, so they can't take any responsibility for them!

CG's responsibility is to ask Atozed to provide necessary Docs or help them
to prepare them. Also it is CG's responsibility to provide support in this
NG either thru TeamB members or CG staff.

[Bill Todd [TeamB]]

So your preference is that CodeGear drop VCL for the Web. In that case
please enter a feature request in QC to remove VCL for the Web.

[Farshad]

Post by Bill Todd [TeamB]
So your preference is that CodeGear drop VCL for the Web. In that case
please enter a feature request in QC to remove VCL for the Web.

My preference is that CG+AtoZed should dedicate more resources to IW and
improve the customer experience. I wonder what IW would become if it was a
MS product.

[Bob Swart]

Hi Farshad,

Post by Farshad
My preference is that CG+AtoZed should dedicate more resources to IW and
improve the customer experience. I wonder what IW would become if it was a
MS product.

Microsoft would either buy it and be able to throw lots of (marketing)
money at it, or just let it die and replace it with the next Silver Bullet.

Groetjes,
Bob Swart

[Bill Todd [TeamB]]

Post by Farshad
My preference is that CG+AtoZed should dedicate more resources to IW
and improve the customer experience. I wonder what IW would become if
it was a MS product.

If we are going to talk about things outside the context of reality
then my preference is that Bill Gates give me a billion dollars.

[Farshad]

"Bill Todd [TeamB]"

Post by Bill Todd [TeamB]
If we are going to talk about things outside the context of reality
then my preference is that Bill Gates give me a billion dollars.

What are those things that are counted as things outside the context of
reality? Hiring a few engineers and dedicating them to VCL for Web?

For a company maximizing the profit must be balanced with maximizing the
quality. Well, if CG's main goal is paying Borland's bills and keep the
shareholders satisfied then this discussion is pointless.

[Zoren Lendry]

Post by Farshad
What are those things that are counted as things outside the context of
reality? Hiring a few engineers and dedicating them to VCL for Web?
For a company maximizing the profit must be balanced with maximizing the
quality. Well, if CG's main goal is paying Borland's bills and keep the
shareholders satisfied then this discussion is pointless.

Farshad,

I will agree with you that IW does NOT receive the attention that it
should from CG. They rename it and put it on the fact sheet so they can
check the box that says "Yep, Delphi has extensive Ajax support", and
then ignore it for the most part. It should receive a lot more attention.

But I can say that over the past couple years, the team that is working
on improving and advancing IW has done a great job. They respond to my
issues in a very timely manner. Yeah, you have to pay to get the good
support, but when I think of the hundreds of hours of development time I
have saved (remember - developers cost money), it is a steal.

Loren sZendre

[Farshad]

"Zoren Lendry"

But I can say that over the past couple years, the team that is working on
improving and advancing IW has done a great job.

Well, AtoZed team is working on their part which is mostly technical. But CG
seems to put zero effort on the project and act only as a reseller despite
the fact that they've promoted it as a key feature of Delphi 2007.

They respond to my issues in a very timely manner. Yeah, you have to pay to
get the good support, but when I think of the hundreds of hours of
development time I have saved (remember - developers cost money), it is a
steal.

Well, sometimes I think it would be a better deal for me if I've purchased
Delphi "Pro" from CG and IntraWeb directly from AtoZed.

[Zoren Lendry]

Post by Farshad
Well, AtoZed team is working on their part which is mostly technical. But CG
seems to put zero effort on the project and act only as a reseller despite
the fact that they've promoted it as a key feature of Delphi 2007.

I sympathize with you. CG should give IW a LOT more attention. There's
nothing quite like it out there. Talk about RAD for the web, while
retaining great performance (anyone remember Delphi 1?). With a few more
resources, IW could have a lot of new eye candy thrown at it, which
would make business apps a lot more attractive.

Loren sZendre

[Bill Todd [TeamB]]

Post by Farshad
Well, AtoZed team is working on their part which is mostly technical.

What makes you say that? Have you seen the contract between CodeGear
and AtoZed and are you telling use that the contract states that AtoZed
is only responsible for technical development and that CodeGear is
responsible for the documentation? If so, please post the contract so
we can all see it. If you have not seen the contract how can you
possibly know which company is responsible for what?

Post by Farshad
But CG seems to put zero effort on the project and act only as a
reseller despite the fact that they've promoted it as a key feature
of Delphi 2007.

And that is exactly the same thing that CoedGear does with Rave
reports, Indy and TChart and I don't see you complaining about them.
Why is that?

[Farshad]

"Bill Todd [TeamB]"

Post by Bill Todd [TeamB]
And that is exactly the same thing that CoedGear does with Rave
reports, Indy and TChart and I don't see you complaining about them.
Why is that?

I never used Rave Reports so I can't really say a lot about it, but you have
other alternatives if somehow you were not satisfied with it. Indy is
opensource and all updates and new versions are available for free. TChart
deosn't perform a critical role in your app.

IW is different. Let me elaborate. First of all IW is unique. Once you start
and deliver your project into its hands you don't have many other choices to
replace it. Fortunately, IW is robust and for most of the part things work
flawlessly, but if you start a web based project entirely based on IW and
something bad happens right in the middle of the project there is no turning
back. If IW was a SQL Database Server you could replace it with something
else but with IW you can't. That's why IW is not just another 3rd party
bundled with Delphi.

[Arthur Hoornweg]

Post by Bill Todd [TeamB]
What makes you say that? Have you seen the contract between CodeGear
and AtoZed and are you telling use that the contract states that AtoZed
is only responsible for technical development and that CodeGear is
responsible for the documentation?

Then who exactly is? Please take a look at the "documentation" forum on
support.atozedsoftware.com. It is *dead*. Only seven threads since
2006 and Atozed answered only three of them.


Admitted, technical questions are answered swiftly and competently but
it would help tremendously if someone would just cut-and-past them
into a proper help file.

[Bill Todd [TeamB]]

Post by Arthur Hoornweg
Then who exactly is?

Not having seen the contract, I have no idea.

[Arthur Hoornweg]

Post by Zoren Lendry
I will agree with you that IW does NOT receive the attention that it
should from CG. They rename it and put it on the fact sheet so they can
check the box that says "Yep, Delphi has extensive Ajax support"

It probably does, but Ajax support isn't readily accessible because it
simply isn't documented.

Post by Zoren Lendry
Yeah, you have to pay to get the good
support, but when I think of the hundreds of hours of development time I
have saved (remember - developers cost money), it is a steal.

If "support" means getting explained what the properties/methods/objects
are supposed to do in the first place, I do not find it a bargain.
In the 21st century, I expect "F1" to come up with something that helps
me get on with my work.

The lack of documentation is a real liability. In the end, it may be more
productive (and certainly safer) to use a less powerful framework that is
better documented.

IMHO, Codegear should speak some serious words with Atozed and
*demand* that it be properly documented before bundling it with the
next Delphi version. We "small" users are simply ignored by Atozed
but they might listen to a bigger customer like Codegear.

[Bob Swart]

Hi Arthur,

Post by Arthur Hoornweg
It probably does, but Ajax support isn't readily accessible because it
simply isn't documented.

Articles have appeared on AJAX in IntraWeb, and I've devoted a section
of my training manual to it. It's actually not really that hard to use...

Groetjes,
Bob Swart

[Arthur Hoornweg]

Post by Bob Swart
Articles have appeared on AJAX in IntraWeb, and I've devoted a section
of my training manual to it. It's actually not really that hard to use...

Admitted, if the user is persistent enough to crawl the websites, the NNTP
forums and third-party books he may eventually find the information he
needs. But that still doesn't make it "good practice".

[Bill Todd [TeamB]]

if CG's main goal is paying Borland's bills and keep the shareholders
satisfied then this discussion is pointless.

If that is NOT what the officers and directors of Borland are then they
are likely to find themseleves in court because they have a legal
obligation to do what is in the best interest of the shareholders. If
you want to think about the questions you have raised you need to think
about them from the perspective of Borland and AtoZed Software because
the management of both companies should be and probably are making
decisions based on what they believe to be in the best interests of
their respective companies.

[Farshad]

"Bill Todd [TeamB]"

Post by Bill Todd [TeamB]
If that is NOT what the officers and directors of Borland are then they
are likely to find themseleves in court because they have a legal
obligation to do what is in the best interest of the shareholders. If
you want to think about the questions you have raised you need to think
about them from the perspective of Borland and AtoZed Software because
the management of both companies should be and probably are making
decisions based on what they believe to be in the best interests of
their respective companies.

Ok let's forget about all these management & shareholder stuff. I personally
don't like sneaking my nose into other companies' management. I'm looking
from both a developer and a customer perspective and I believe most of the
Delphi developers would agree with many of points I raised in one of my
previous posts somewhere above.

[Pat Fleck]

Post by Farshad
"Bill Todd [TeamB]"

Post by Bill Todd [TeamB]
If that is NOT what the officers and directors of Borland are then
they are likely to find themseleves in court because they have a
legal obligation to do what is in the best interest of the
shareholders. If you want to think about the questions you have
raised you need to think about them from the perspective of Borland
and AtoZed Software because the management of both companies should
be and probably are making decisions based on what they believe to
be in the best interests of their respective companies.

Ok let's forget about all these management & shareholder stuff. I
personally don't like sneaking my nose into other companies'
management. I'm looking from both a developer and a customer
perspective and I believe most of the Delphi developers would agree
with many of points I raised in one of my previous posts somewhere
above.

I agree with most of what you say. It seems to me that Bill Todd is
playing Devils advocate, and not saying anything that is actually
constructive but appears to be directed towards winding you up...

--

[Bob Swart]

Hi Albert,

Post by albert

I'm working on that - my new Delphi 2007 - IntraWeb 9.0.x manual is almost
ready, and will be available for purchase on Lulu.com (printed) or as PDF
from my own site

No offence, and I'm sure that the book will be very good but shouldn't this
be available within Delphi out-of-the-box?

And who should have written that? CodeGear? Their doc team is already
working very hard on the Delphi/C++Builder/RAD Studio documentation itself.

Post by albert
albert

Groetjes,
Bob Swart

[Joel]

Agreed. IW is great. Support Bob and buy his book.

Post by Bob Swart
Hi Albert,

Post by albert

Post by Bob Swart
I'm working on that - my new Delphi 2007 - IntraWeb 9.0.x manual is
almost ready, and will be available for purchase on Lulu.com (printed)
or as PDF from my own site

No offence, and I'm sure that the book will be very good but shouldn't
this be available within Delphi out-of-the-box?

And who should have written that? CodeGear? Their doc team is already
working very hard on the Delphi/C++Builder/RAD Studio documentation itself.

Post by albert
albert

Groetjes,
Bob Swart
--
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
CodeGear Technology Partner -- CodeGear RAD Studio Reseller (BeNeLux)
Delphi Win32 & .NET books on Lulu.com: http://stores.lulu.com/drbob42
Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://eBob42.com/weblog.xml

[albert drent]

Post by Joel
Agreed. IW is great. Support Bob and buy his book.

Post by Bob Swart
Hi Albert,

Post by albert

Post by Bob Swart
I'm working on that - my new Delphi 2007 - IntraWeb 9.0.x manual is
almost ready, and will be available for purchase on Lulu.com (printed)
or as PDF from my own site

No offence, and I'm sure that the book will be very good but shouldn't
this be available within Delphi out-of-the-box?

And who should have written that? CodeGear? Their doc team is already
working very hard on the Delphi/C++Builder/RAD Studio documentation itself.

Post by albert
albert

Groetjes,
Bob Swart
--
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
CodeGear Technology Partner -- CodeGear RAD Studio Reseller (BeNeLux)
Delphi Win32 & .NET books on Lulu.com: http://stores.lulu.com/drbob42
Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://eBob42.com/weblog.xml

I most likely will. But regarding the arguments in this thread I still
have second thoughts. But they don't matter.

[Bill Todd [TeamB]]

Post by albert
No offence, and I'm sure that the book will be very good but
shouldn't this be available within Delphi out-of-the-box?

IntraWeb is not a CodeGear product. CodeGear has two choices. They can
bundle what AtoZed Software provides or they can not market IntraWeb at
all.

[Gary Barwick]

Hi Bill

Where on the CodeGear website, and by that I mean the Product Marketing bit,
does it make it explicitly clear that VCL for the Web is actually a third
party product?

It doesn't - as far as I can see.

Why are we defending CodeGear on this? We have paid for this product. If
CodeGear can't provide the most rudimentary documentation like a basic (but
complete) component reference why have they bundled the product with Delphi
/ RAD Studio?

No one doubts that the CodeGear documentation team are working hard, but why
exactly is that my problem? I have paid for something as promoted by
CodeGear which is not being provided.

Can anyone really argue that CodeGear should not provide thorough
documentation for their product?

Justifying this by saying that it is not their product is nonsense! They are
selling it, and promoting it as a key feature of the Delphi environment.

Still, I will probably continue to use IW, because I know Delphi, and
despite the appauling documentation, it is a very good product.

CodeGear really need to sort this out.

Gary B

Post by Bill Todd [TeamB]

Post by albert
No offence, and I'm sure that the book will be very good but
shouldn't this be available within Delphi out-of-the-box?

IntraWeb is not a CodeGear product. CodeGear has two choices. They can
bundle what AtoZed Software provides or they can not market IntraWeb at
all.
--
Bill Todd (TeamB)

[Bill Todd [TeamB]]

Since the only two options that CodeGear has is to include the product
that AtoZed provides or not I take your comments to mean that you would
prefer not to have IntraWeb included. If that is the case please enter
a feature request in QC to remove VCL for the Web.

[Pat Fleck]

Post by Bill Todd [TeamB]
Since the only two options that CodeGear has is to include the product
that AtoZed provides or not I take your comments to mean that you
would prefer not to have IntraWeb included. If that is the case
please enter a feature request in QC to remove VCL for the Web.

Why does CodeGear only have two options?

--

[delfo]

Post by Bob Swart
There is an IWFlash component to integrate Flash into your IntraWeb app,
just as an IWSilverlight component and other integration stuff.

I don't want to do that. If I have to write part of my application in
Flash it would be easier to go flash-only. I'm sure you have read many
posts here complaining of this kind of problems, so I don't think I need
to explain it anymore.

Post by Bob Swart

Post by delfo
-Deployment to Linux/Apache.

I have no need for that, although IntraWeb applications can be compiled
for Apache (see http://www.drbob42.com/examines/examin80.htm).

We use Oracle almost for everything -not that I agree with that-
including Oracle Webserver, which is some kind of Apache. If I write an
application in Intraweb it would be very hard to integrate it with our
other applications.

I have an idea, but don't know if it's a stupid one. If Intraweb had a
webservice interface, when the user asks for a page to Apache, a PHP
program would ask for it to the Intraweb webservice and would send the
response back to the user. Any chance that something like that would work?


Anyway, thanks for your opinions, even if you don't agree with me.

[Joel]

What is this about controls being outdated. You can use 3rd party or just
do anything you want. Integrate jquery or anything that you can normally do
with html and javascript.

It sounds to me like don't really understand the full power of IW.

Joel

Post by delfo
-Documentation.
-Controls that "look and feel" cute instead of outdated (I would like
something that looked like Flash).
-Deployment to Linux/Apache.
Without those things it's just a toy.

[Farshad]

"Joel"

Post by Joel
It sounds to me like don't really understand the full power of IW.
Joel

Yes! no one is really aware of full power of IW. Guess why?

[Rita]

Post by Joel
It sounds to me like don't really understand the full power of IW.

Leave it out Joel nobody can find out. I asked a whole lot of questions on
IW early days. No answers, I even bought an update and got support
group access, after some probaly easy answered questions gone unanswered
I tried a gentle whine. That resulted in a flame from that little man who
jumped
ship to M$.
Then on the 31st May 2004 I tried to upgrade my licence it was due for
renewal on the 2nd June 2004 it told me it had expired. I emailed support
three times no answer. Now I got angry I was locked out and I posted about
my problem here hoping whoever was around from AtoZed would see it.
Suprise suprise that same little man flamed me and put all the blame on me,
anyone even tries to grumble about AtoZed people jump in to support them,
and thats fine I can understand it coz IW is a great product as are TMS
components to go with it but documentation is low grade.
CodeGear have gone down the pan now I cant upgrade my D7 so it looks
like I may have to buy a new user version my reg is lost.

I would love the latest IW but when I keep reading threads like this I cant
take that plunge sad but true.
Rita

[Bob Swart]

Hi Rita,

Post by Rita
Suprise suprise that same little man flamed me and put all the blame on me,
anyone even tries to grumble about AtoZed people jump in to support them,
and thats fine I can understand it coz IW is a great product as are TMS
components to go with it but documentation is low grade.

The bottom line is that IntraWeb is a great product. There may be
frustrations with documentation or newsgroup experiences, but that can
all be remedied and fixed with a little time or help.

Post by Rita
CodeGear have gone down the pan now I cant upgrade my D7 so it looks
like I may have to buy a new user version my reg is lost.

Why can't you upgrade your Delphi 7? If you have Delphi 7, then you can
upgrade it. Even if you lost your serial number, you should still have
an invoice or a reseller reference so you can use that to upgrade to the
latest version of Delphi. Or is there another problem?

Post by Rita
I would love the latest IW but when I keep reading threads like this I cant
take that plunge sad but true.

If you take the plunge, there will be people here and in the other
IntraWeb newsgroups to help you (not to drown)...

Post by Rita
Rita

Groetjes,
Bob Swart

[Rita]

Post by Bob Swart
The bottom line is that IntraWeb is a great product.

I did state that.

Post by Bob Swart
Why can't you upgrade your Delphi 7? If you have Delphi 7, then you can
upgrade it. Even if you lost your serial number, you should still have an
invoice or a reseller reference so you can use that to upgrade to the
latest version of Delphi. Or is there another problem?

Oh! Bob if it was easy I would have it now. I have tried the UK office
they refer me to a re-seller yet I bought it from the Borland UK office
that is near my house well not far and I went 1+2+4+5+7 route without
a problem. Girl on phone hello Rita u want to upgrade no problem
bash bash bash on her keys debit card number please bash bash bash
ok got it thanks bye bye. Product here next day usually, same main
postal sorting office. I forgot I'am one of the idiots who paid for Kylix
3 pro before I bought D7 ;-) whats happened to that nothing its showing
in my registered software group. So whats happened to 1+2+4+5+7 ?

Post by Bob Swart
If you take the plunge, there will be people here and in the other
IntraWeb newsgroups to help you (not to drown)...

I'am no longer drowning but I will not upgrade until my licence issue
is sorted out. Then I may find I need more help than the docs provide.

Rita D7 + IW 7.20 I like it but I wanna love it we should really whats
gone wrong with the whole software gig since Shista could it be a ploy
or conspiracy or maybe I need a cruise.

[Bob Swart]

Hi Rita,

Post by Rita
Oh! Bob if it was easy I would have it now. I have tried the UK office
they refer me to a re-seller yet I bought it from the Borland UK office

OK, then the UK office should be told (again) that you bought directly
from them. It may be that they no longer take orders (I don't know), but
you should be "on file" with them.

Post by Rita
whats happened to that nothing its showing in my registered software
group. So whats happened to 1+2+4+5+7 ?

What do you mean exactly by "registered software group"? The list of
registered software when you login to dn.codegear.com ?

The information could be missing from the database, but it might also be
possible that you used a different e-mail address to register them (I
used to have a ***@chello.nl e-mail account, and when I started to
use a new e-mail account I had to modify my codegear developer network
account to use the new e-mail address (and not create a new account)).

Anyway, in order to purchase an update for the update price, you only
have to "prove" to the reseller that you own one of the previous versions.

Post by Rita
I'am no longer drowning but I will not upgrade until my licence issue
is sorted out. Then I may find I need more help than the docs provide.

Do you have your serial number(s) and registration keys (usually written
on the CD or in/on the box for the CD). That's enough "proof", and if
you want it to show up on the members.codegear.com website, you may try
http://support.codegear.com/ and click on the products you want to
register in your name.

If that doesn't work, you may need to contact the local UK office again
(sorry).

Post by Rita
Rita D7 + IW 7.20 I like it but I wanna love it we should really whats
gone wrong with the whole software gig since Shista could it be a ploy
or conspiracy or maybe I need a cruise.

Eh?

Anyway, I recommend Delphi 2007 for Win32 + IW 9.0.x, but unfortunately
I'm not allowed to sell it it to you myself ;-)

Groetjes,
Bob "BeNeLux reseller only" Swart

[BobW]

Dr. Bob Said:
<SNIP>
Anyway, I recommend Delphi 2007 for Win32 + IW 9.0.x, but unfortunately
I'm not allowed to sell it it to you myself ;-)

Groetjes,
Bob "BeNeLux reseller only" Swart
___________________________________________
To Dr. Bob,

I have used IW enough to like it; also, enough to understand
a lot of frustration that has been expressed here - relative to
lack of documentation and a "toy" and CodeGear's (Delphi's)
"strange" relationship with IW ... yeah, it seems strange to
me - thats an opinion and mine is the only one that counts to
me at times.

Having said that, I am sitting here thinking of upgrading my
Delphi. I purchased BDS 2006 and still use Delphi 7. My reasoning
is (hope this translates across the pond) -


If you have a race horse, why would you be riding that jackass
(ehhhh donkey)?


I'm clearly going to purchase a useable copy of IW. Right now
I'm just dinking around with the IW version that came with D7.
But reading AtoZed web site and communicating with someone there
via email, I don't see a big advantage of upgrading my Delphi
(same "race horse" reason). I do see a big need of a hard book
and intend to purchase yours when it is available in printed
form.

So, for my question: Why do you recommend D2007 for Win32?
What advantage will I see going to D2007 vs D7.

Thanks,
Bob - but not a Dr.

[Bob Swart]

Hi Bob,

Post by BobW
Having said that, I am sitting here thinking of upgrading my
Delphi. I purchased BDS 2006 and still use Delphi 7. My reasoning
is (hope this translates across the pond) -
If you have a race horse, why would you be riding that jackass
(ehhhh donkey)?

To win prices?

I use Delphi 7 when I have to, but I use Delphi 2007 when I can (or when
I have a choice), because of numerous reasons.

VCL designer guidelines, DBX4 framework, better SOAP support

Post by BobW
I'm clearly going to purchase a useable copy of IW. Right now
I'm just dinking around with the IW version that came with D7.

That would be version 5.x - a lot has changed since that time...

Post by BobW
But reading AtoZed web site and communicating with someone there
via email, I don't see a big advantage of upgrading my Delphi
(same "race horse" reason). I do see a big need of a hard book
and intend to purchase yours when it is available in printed
form.

I'm afraid it will be using screenshots of Delphi 2007 for Win32. The
old book using Delphi 7 and IntraWeb 5.x is also still available (not
yet for sale, but if are really desperate I could dust it off ;-)).

Post by BobW
So, for my question: Why do you recommend D2007 for Win32?
What advantage will I see going to D2007 vs D7.

See http://dn.codegear.com/article/34323,
http://dn.codegear.com/article/34324 and
http://dn.codegear.com/article/34325

Post by BobW
Thanks,
Bob - but not a Dr.

I'm actually a "drs." (a doctor-to-be) but when the nickname was born
(back in the age of The Pascal Magazine), this title wouldn't translate
to something others would know...

Groetjes,
Bob Swart

[BobW]

Thanks Drs. Bob,

I looked those codegear articles over. I might
just purchase 2007. If I do, they should give you
credit, for whatever that would be worth.

I do love Delphi and I read these gloom and doom
articles on this newsgroup about the demise of
CodeGear hoping none of that is true. I think,
at times, you need to support the home team; so
I might be in. I keep waiting on a "DAMN, DUDE"
(pardon me) moment like when Turbo Pascal
sold for $29 and would kick the you-know-what
out of anything else. I might never find that
moment again. But when you use D7 and it performs
great and never locks up .... well, you expect
any replacement to be that good.

If I buy the latest IW version (subscription), can
I install it on a machine with D7 and another machine
with D2007 as long as I am the only person who uses
either machine? I understand that the license is
similar to Delphi and I think that would be permissable,
AS LONG AS I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO USES IT?? I'm a
one-man company and my wife is in charge of shopping -
no one else would use it. ????

Anyway, I'm interested in your book. Please
make sure you inform us - might take more than
once also. Sometimes I miss a day or two.

Thanks,
BobW in Atlanta
(that W is for Watson and sometimes I'm called
"doctor" because of Sherlock)

Post by Bob Swart
Hi Bob,

Post by BobW
Having said that, I am sitting here thinking of upgrading my
Delphi. I purchased BDS 2006 and still use Delphi 7. My reasoning
is (hope this translates across the pond) -
If you have a race horse, why would you be riding that jackass
(ehhhh donkey)?

To win prices?
I use Delphi 7 when I have to, but I use Delphi 2007 when I can (or when I
have a choice), because of numerous reasons.
VCL designer guidelines, DBX4 framework, better SOAP support

Post by BobW
I'm clearly going to purchase a useable copy of IW. Right now
I'm just dinking around with the IW version that came with D7.

That would be version 5.x - a lot has changed since that time...

Post by BobW
But reading AtoZed web site and communicating with someone there
via email, I don't see a big advantage of upgrading my Delphi
(same "race horse" reason). I do see a big need of a hard book
and intend to purchase yours when it is available in printed
form.

I'm afraid it will be using screenshots of Delphi 2007 for Win32. The old
book using Delphi 7 and IntraWeb 5.x is also still available (not yet for
sale, but if are really desperate I could dust it off ;-)).

Post by BobW
So, for my question: Why do you recommend D2007 for Win32?
What advantage will I see going to D2007 vs D7.

See http://dn.codegear.com/article/34323,
http://dn.codegear.com/article/34324 and
http://dn.codegear.com/article/34325

Post by BobW
Thanks,
Bob - but not a Dr.

I'm actually a "drs." (a doctor-to-be) but when the nickname was born
(back in the age of The Pascal Magazine), this title wouldn't translate to
something others would know...
Groetjes,
Bob Swart
--
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
CodeGear Technology Partner -- CodeGear RAD Studio Reseller (BeNeLux)
Delphi Win32 & .NET books on Lulu.com: http://stores.lulu.com/drbob42
Personal courseware + e-mail support http://www.ebob42.com/courseware
Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://eBob42.com/weblog.xml

[Bob Swart]

Hi Bob,

Post by BobW
I looked those codegear articles over. I might
just purchase 2007. If I do, they should give you
credit, for whatever that would be worth.

I already got a "spirit of Delphi" award (got it in 1999, together with
Marco Cantù), so I'm covered ;-)

Post by BobW
If I buy the latest IW version (subscription), can
I install it on a machine with D7 and another machine
with D2007 as long as I am the only person who uses
either machine?

I think so, but I don't speak for AtoZedSoftware (or CodeGear for that
matter).

But I've also installed it on more than one machine (for testing
purposes), so I think it's fine.

Post by BobW
AS LONG AS I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO USES IT?? I'm a
one-man company and my wife is in charge of shopping -

Same here, although I also love to shop at least as much as my wife (and
kids) ;-)

Post by BobW
Anyway, I'm interested in your book. Please
make sure you inform us - might take more than
once also. Sometimes I miss a day or two.

The PDF + e-mail support version is available (see elsewhere in this
newsgroup or on my blog at
http://www.bobswart.nl/Weblog/Blog.aspx?RootId=5:2160). The Lulu.com
version will follow later this month, when all little updates (both in
IntraWeb and the manual) have been included...

Post by BobW
BobW in Atlanta
(that W is for Watson and sometimes I'm called
"doctor" because of Sherlock)

Cool. From one drs. to another doctor then ;-)

Groetjes,
Bob Swart

[Farshad]

Just curious! Who's that man who jumped the ship to MS?

[Bob Swart]

Hi Farshad,

Post by Farshad
Just curious! Who's that man who jumped the ship to MS?

She may mean Chad Z. Hower (aka Kudzu), but he's no longer working for
Microsoft - see http://blogs.msdn.com/czhower/ and also his recent
http://www.woo-hoo.net/ and good-old http://www.kudzuworld.com/

Groetjes,
Bob Swart

[Farshad]

Thanks for clarifying it.

Meanwhile, is your IW 9.0 manual ready for dowanload?

Post by Bob Swart
Hi Farshad,

Post by Farshad
Just curious! Who's that man who jumped the ship to MS?

She may mean Chad Z. Hower (aka Kudzu), but he's no longer working for
Microsoft - see http://blogs.msdn.com/czhower/ and also his recent
http://www.woo-hoo.net/ and good-old http://www.kudzuworld.com/

[Bob Swart]

Hi Farshad,

Post by Farshad
Meanwhile, is your IW 9.0 manual ready for dowanload?

No, I'm still working on the AJAX chapter - there are some funny things
to mention for the OnAsync events and parameters. ;-)

It is available for pre-order in PDF format including e-mail support
(for 99 Euro, plus tax where applicable). This includes the updates that
will be made available in the next weeks / months as well.

On Lulu.com, I will only offer the printed copy (no PDF download this
time), and there may be different releases on Lulu (with updated info),
that's why the Lulu price will be cheaper like 30 Euro.
Expect the printed lulu version around the end of this month. The first
PDF goes to early customers and reviewers later today.

Groetjes,
Bob Swart

[Rita]

Post by Bob Swart
She may mean Chad Z. Hower

SHE BLOOMIN SHE is the cats mother ;-)
Bob had him pegged spot on. :)
Also Bobby boy you have pointed me in the right
direction, I can just re-register stuff ?
"http://support.codegear.com/ and click on the products you want to
register in your name."
Plus I used a different email addy for it all up until D5-D7
I have the originals with the number on the cd so I shall try
re-reg if it lets me. Thanx most helpful why cant Titanic tell
me that.
Rita

[Jason Southwell]

Post by Gary Barwick
Respect to these guys. The product is very good. But it is for the
Delphi die-hard, or the hobbyist. No development director / architect
is going to choose to use this product in over ASP.NET / J2EE / PHP et
al. IntraWeb is just not well enough supported. The risks are just too
high.

Well, I have one product that is used internally in an enterprise by over
1300 employees. It handles several functions of a standard ERP system.
I'm not sure you get more enterprise than that.

[Gary Barwick]

Point taken Jason, and I'm not for a minute questioning the potential of IW.
I have used it successfully myself on a scale similar to what you describe.
This is because I know Delphi and the product was for a long-term customer
with a significant existing investment in Delphi technology.

I don't do much development personally anymore, but when I do it is
invariably Delphi. Most of my work these days is consulting as an architect
/ systems designer. I have just completed an assignment where we evaluated a
number of technologies for a specific web project and finally settled on
ASP.NET with a third-party control set. Delphi / IW wasn't even in the
running, despite the fact that I knew it could do the job very well. There
are many reasons for this, the biggest being the lack of IW skill in the
developer marketplace (UK). Another reason has to be the poor documentation
and the implied risk of having major support issues somewhere down the line.
I know it's an old cliche, but no-one ever got fired for picking Microsoft!

Having said that, just yesterday afternoon I took one of the C# developers
to one side and said "watch this". I then created an IW project with a
couple of regions and a splitter; I added a button and a label and updated
the text with an Async event. 2-3 minutes later I ran the app and he said
"Wow, that's really cool".

What a shame!

Does anyone remember when Delphi 1 came out and just blew everything else
away? I switched from FoxPro and could create applications in record time.
That was truly the "Spirit of Delphi".

In today's world, productivity is a key concept. Delivering better
productivity is a big part of how I make a living.

Intraweb is the nearest thing I've seen in years which can deliver that kind
of leap in productivity. It is beyond me why CodeGear don't buy it and put a
lot more resource behind it. But that's just my opinion. (Please don't tell
me it's not for sale - everything is!)

Respect to IW - Respect to AtoZed.

End of rant. Thanks for listening.

Gary B (no relation of Team B)

[Jeremy Brown]

I also have a few large enterprise systems using IW. I use IW in app
mode as well with a Indy HTTP server bridge for using both web broker
and IW in page mode. I have also written a few components for IW with
commercial JS libraries to fill some customer needs.

For example:

IW Sample 1 site: http://www.delphiaddict.com:8888
This sample uses Time Picker reloaded components
(http://www.dipeshbatheja.com/) and Basic Date Time Picker
(http://www.basicdatepicker.com/) for the javascript libraries.

IW Sample 2 site: http://www.delphiaddict.com:8889
This sample uses FCKEditor (http://www.fckeditor.net/)

As far as I’m concerned Intraweb is a fantastic product. I have used it
for many commercial and private programs. However with all that said IW
does have a steep learning curve. The documentation is very poor and
old. What helped me out the most was studying the little amount of
source code that is available for it. I talked my company into buying
the TMS IW package so that I could learn from their source how to do
things. I’m currently studying Arcana's excellent recently released open
source library and learning a lot from it. I wish there was more IW
source code made available, sadly I don’t have the funds to purchase it
all out right.

There are a lot of methods that are used that are undocumented and a
pain to try and figure out what they do since the source isn't available.

GGetWebApplicationThreadVar.ActiveMasterTemplate, How do you go about
assigning the active master template? When in page mode
ActiveMasterTemplate always returns empty, so after every update I have
to go and modify the IWTemplateProcessorHTML.pas to
GGetWebApplicationThreadVar.MasterTemplate instead.

Then I have the silly questions like, what’s the purpose of requiring
“IW_JS” as a prefix on javascript resources? And what about all of the
methods and properties that are in the IW javascript library that should
be documented and made available. EventParams (TStringList) is passed
with all Async Events. If I add values to it during the callback can I
access them in the javascript? How would I go about doing that? What
event if any would I need to hook?

My problem is that I just keep running into road blocks and spend so
much time creating test apps, logging methods, reviewing HTML and
stepping through JavaScript (gotta love FireBug) to have to figure
things out that I feel should either be documented or source provided so
we can see what it does.

Well end of my rant.

Jeremy Brown

[Gary Barwick]

I like your demos Jeremy.

Where did you get that IWDatePicker control. Is it your own?

I've been using some javascript libraries (http://www.mattkruse.com) for a
date picker but your's looks a lot better.


Cheers

Gary B

I also have a few large enterprise systems using IW. I use IW in app mode
as well with a Indy HTTP server bridge for using both web broker and IW in
page mode. I have also written a few components for IW with commercial JS
libraries to fill some customer needs.
IW Sample 1 site: http://www.delphiaddict.com:8888
This sample uses Time Picker reloaded components
(http://www.dipeshbatheja.com/) and Basic Date Time Picker
(http://www.basicdatepicker.com/) for the javascript libraries.
IW Sample 2 site: http://www.delphiaddict.com:8889
This sample uses FCKEditor (http://www.fckeditor.net/)
As far as I’m concerned Intraweb is a fantastic product. I have used it
for many commercial and private programs. However with all that said IW
does have a steep learning curve. The documentation is very poor and old.
What helped me out the most was studying the little amount of source code
that is available for it. I talked my company into buying the TMS IW
package so that I could learn from their source how to do things. I’m
currently studying Arcana's excellent recently released open source
library and learning a lot from it. I wish there was more IW source code
made available, sadly I don’t have the funds to purchase it all out right.
There are a lot of methods that are used that are undocumented and a pain
to try and figure out what they do since the source isn't available.
GGetWebApplicationThreadVar.ActiveMasterTemplate, How do you go about
assigning the active master template? When in page mode
ActiveMasterTemplate always returns empty, so after every update I have to
go and modify the IWTemplateProcessorHTML.pas to
GGetWebApplicationThreadVar.MasterTemplate instead.
Then I have the silly questions like, what’s the purpose of requiring
“IW_JS” as a prefix on javascript resources? And what about all of the
methods and properties that are in the IW javascript library that should
be documented and made available. EventParams (TStringList) is passed with
all Async Events. If I add values to it during the callback can I access
them in the javascript? How would I go about doing that? What event if any
would I need to hook?
My problem is that I just keep running into road blocks and spend so much
time creating test apps, logging methods, reviewing HTML and stepping
through JavaScript (gotta love FireBug) to have to figure things out that
I feel should either be documented or source provided so we can see what
it does.
Well end of my rant.
Jeremy Brown

[Arthur Hoornweg]

Post by Gary Barwick
1) IntraWeb is very good.
2) IntraWeb is not Enterprise software.
The documentation is very poor - some of it is years old.

That's the sad story in a nutshell.

Intraweb is GeekWare. An Intraweb developer quickly becomes indispensable
because no one else knows how to maintain his stuff.

I am a registered user and the silence in the "Documentation" forum
of their NNTP server (support.atozedsoftware.com) is simply deafening.
One user asked "will there be a new PDF manual" on 4/4/2007 and his
post hasn't even been answered yet ....

[Warren Postma]

Post by Arthur Hoornweg
Intraweb is GeekWare.

My basic problem with Intraweb is that I have come to despise the Indy
component set. Indy 9 was good-enough-but-problem-filled and Indy 10
became a total pile of crap, IMNSHO.

W

[Arthur Hoornweg]

Post by Warren Postma
My basic problem with Intraweb is that I have come to despise the Indy
component set.

I switched to Synapse because it's simple, reliable and well documented.

[Farshad]

Post by Arthur Hoornweg

Post by Warren Postma
My basic problem with Intraweb is that I have come to despise the Indy
component set.

I switched to Synapse because it's simple, reliable and well documented.

How did you integrate Synapse in IW?

[Arthur Hoornweg]

Post by Farshad
How did you integrate Synapse in IW?

Not in IW. In my own developments.